Sutton Sailing Club

Monday, September 25, 2006

Rule 12 the debate continues


There it is Rule 12 no mention of overtaking?????????

Any one else wishing to join the debate please feel free to comment.

Only request please state your name.

posted by SSC Member at Monday, September 25, 2006

9 Comments:

  • Overtaking boat keeps clear, I thought that that rule had gone. Here's an example of an over taking boat not having to keep clear.
    http://www.angelfire.com/de2/WIT/Case50ans.htm

    John, father of Sam Knight (New topper member)

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:11 pm  

  • This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Blogger Faz, at 2:32 pm  

  • Yes agreed the only rule that comes into play is rule 11. Windward boat keep clear, providing the overtaking boat goes down wind (leeward)he has right of way, providing he maintaines his coarse.

    This is a perfectly legal move although will not make you very popular, but thats racing........

    By Blogger Faz, at 2:44 pm  

  • My thoughts on the matter, as follows .....

    Rule 11 - Is a general rule that applies to boats converging on the same tack from opposing directions and not necessarily sailing between the same marks or overtaking.

    Rule 12 - I interpret this as preventing a faster boat that is clear astern from ramming into the one ahead, i.e. you must keep clear astern until you have an overlap regardless of how the boat ahead manoeuvres.

    Rule 17 - Once an overlap is established from astern then both boats must sail their "proper course" (i.e. the fastest route) and not deliberately manoeuvre to force the other to change direction to avoid contact. However if the overtaking boat has established an overlap to leeward on a beat and you get a wind shift that allows you to point up more towards the mark, then I believe the windward boat must give space. Also, if the overtaking boat is maintaining a steady but converging course and is to leeward of the boat being overtaken then the windward boat must change course to avoid contact when overlapped (as per John's example).

    In conclusion, the overtaking boat can have right of way, but only once overlapped.

    Mike Birt

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:45 pm  

  • I am hardly an expert, but I do have a useful book called the "2005/06 Rules in Practice" - with diagrams.

    I can't see how to post pictures as follow-up comments though.

    But here is one item on approaching a windward mark (rounding to port) with both boats on starboard.

    The trailing boat(B) has managed to get an overlap to leeward of another (A)

    You are A:
    If you are the lead boat and there is any doubt about whether the overlap was established before you reached the two-length zone then B does not have the right to round inside and you should tell him so.

    Because B got his overlap from clear astern he has no luffing rights, but if the overlap is established before the two-length zone then he may sail his proper course around the mark (i.e. the course he would steer if A were not there). You must keep clear.

    Rules 18.2(e)

    If you are B:

    If the boats are overlapped without doubt before A reaches the two-length zone and are still overlapped at the two-length zone you have the right to sail your proper course (i.e if A were not there). This may mean even sailing above close-hauled to "shoot" the mark. You may even head up a bit so that you don't get too far from the mark as you complete the rounding.

    If there is "reasonable doubt" as to whether A was within the two-lengths zone when you established your overlap, you must presume that you are too late. If A is shouting at you that your overlap is too late, you'd be wise to keep clear.


    I only submit this as illustration of the clarity of this book the diagrams help more. There are another 6 or so overtaking towards the windward mark examples and many more on the run etc.

    This example would point to Faz being correct, but rule 18 is the key on the actual rounding of the mark.

    I expect others already have this book and have years more racing experience than I do, but I will bring it in next time, it might be worth having a copy at the club.

    Richard

    By Blogger SSC Member, at 7:54 am  

  • Unfortunately I wasn't at the club on the day this event must have happened. However I assume from the debate that someone was overtaking and as usual the other boat told them that 'overtaking boat keeps clear'.

    There may be some genuine confusion with the rule from the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea in which overtaking boats do have to keep clear. But this only applies to sea going vessels on the sea not taking part in racing, and to a situation again on the sea involving a racing yacht and non-racing yacht. It doesn't apply on our pool.

    The rules governing our races are as the other contributors have stated only the ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:42 pm  

  • The second Wednesday night Social is on November 1st.

    On this occasion we will have a 'Rules Quiz Night' in which a series of Flash Files (animations) will be shown which depict a variety of sailing situations where there might be some dispute. The answers are then given in accordance with rules, together with an explanation.

    There are 84 animations of the so called 'easy' situations, at least three of which include overtaking boat scenarios.

    I would recomend everyone who can to come to this evening as the animations are very good.

    There are also about 84 medium situations and 84 difficult ones but these will have to be left to future evenings.

    So, pencil it in your diary and hope we have some windows!

    JW

    By Blogger John Wilber, at 4:18 pm  

  • Sory but I had to leave this comment twice so that it is automatically forwarded to everyone.

    The second Wednesday night Social is on November 1st.

    On this occasion we will have a 'Rules Quiz Night' in which a series of Flash Files (animations) will be shown which depict a variety of sailing situations where there might be some dispute. The answers are then given in accordance with rules, together with an explanation.

    There are 84 animations of the so called 'easy' situations, at least three of which include overtaking boat scenarios.

    I would recomend everyone who can to come to this evening as the animations are very good.

    There are also about 84 medium situations and 84 difficult ones but these will have to be left to future evenings.

    So, pencil it in your diary and hope we have some windows!

    JW

    By Blogger John Wilber, at 4:39 pm  

  • I think John W's idea for Novemeber is a great one and should provide some interesting debate.

    My understanding of rule 12 is that a boat clear astern of another must keep clear of the one ahead when they are both on the same tack to avoid hiting the slower boat infront. If they then avoid the boat and have an overlap the other rules ie windward boat and sailing the proper course come into play

    Just thought I would add to the debate - Max

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:18 pm  

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